tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post454777230858153808..comments2023-03-12T03:07:50.202-07:00Comments on Spirit of the Blank: Supers: Balancing the ScalesMike Olsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11547961835994778883noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-75782575352302465822010-01-15T00:03:17.796-08:002010-01-15T00:03:17.796-08:00When superman punches a normal why doesn't the...<i>When superman punches a normal why doesn't the guy's head explode?</i><br /><br />The short answer? Because the author doesn't want the reader to hate Superman. When it came to <i>Stormwatch</i> and <i>The Authority</i>, of course, Warren Ellis didn't give a shit.<br /><br />Looks like I picked the wrong day to go to the beach! Allow me to digest all of this and post something else when I get a chance. Thanks for all the feedback -- it's heartening to see such a lively discussion on the matter.Mike Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11547961835994778883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-33538724008671326932010-01-14T22:14:40.654-08:002010-01-14T22:14:40.654-08:00I had a thought. For simplicity I'll assume tw...I had a thought. For simplicity I'll assume two tiers: normal and super.<br /><br />Normal vs normal and super vs super are easy. They are the same scale so normal resolution mechanics apply.<br /><br />Normal vs super could be handled in a couple of ways:<br /><br />1) Aspects can overcome scale:<br /> - Hit superman with a stick and nothing happens because they are different scales. Put some <em>kryptonite</em> on a stick and the <em>kryptonite</em> aspect overcomes the scale difference.<br /> - In season 5 of Buffy. Glory always kicked Buffy's ass because slayer vs hell god are different scales. But in the final episode <em>Dagon sphere</em> + <em>Troll hammer</em> + <em>slayer</em> overcame the scale difference.<br /> - In Star Wars, what good are snub fighters going to be against a Death Star? <em>Got the Plans</em> + <em>Found a weakness</em> + <em>manoeuvre down the trench</em> + <em>use the Force</em> and you overcome the scale difference.<br /> - Don't fire your bazooka at the super hero. Instead fire at the wall behind him. <em>Bazooka</em> + <em>collapsing wall</em> overcomes the scale difference.<br /><br />2) Brad Murry (Diaspora) had a suggestion on how to handle <a href="http://www.vsca.ca/halfjack/?p=18" title="Diaspora and giant bugs" rel="nofollow">giant bugs</a> in his blog that might work.<br /><br />The really hard part is super vs normal. When superman punches a normal why doesn't the guy's head explode?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-24457175686094391962010-01-14T19:59:05.227-08:002010-01-14T19:59:05.227-08:00I like where you're going, but I want to share...I like where you're going, but I want to share the idea I had when you presented the problem. It's less crunchy, but I'm not sure it would have the degree of detail you're looking for. <br /><br />Basically, use the original 3 scales and say that skills used for defense to not have a tier. <br /><br />In other words, Superman's Super strength is always going to beat batman's Mundane Strength in an arm wrestling contest, but his Top Tier Superb Fists are equivalent to Batman's untiered Superb Athletics when Supes is trying to land a blow on him.<br /><br />If anything this is more accurate to our conception of superheroes; the Hulk does a lot of damage (high fists) but he doesn't *hit* more often than batman.<br /><br />If this added utility seems unbalancing, it's a simple matter to increase the cost of defensive trappings.<br /><br />anyway, just an idea. Feel free to disregard it.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14483839593436870340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-71232119889596770802010-01-14T18:11:09.552-08:002010-01-14T18:11:09.552-08:00Have you looked at a game called Risus? The rules ...Have you looked at a game called <a href="http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm" rel="nofollow">Risus</a>? The rules are a little closer to PDQ than FATE and it is very tongue-in-cheek. The relevant bit is <a href="http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/free/risus-1p53.zip" rel="nofollow">Advanced Option IV:Funky dice</a>. When you buy your Cliques (like a PDQ Quality or a combine Aspect/Skill in FATE) you can buy different dice (d8, d10, d12, d20) instead of the normal d6. Characters have a different number of points to spend on character creation depending upon whether they are normal, super-heroes, gods,...<br /><br />It may also help to check out some of the discussion of the Dresden RPG about Freewill vs Nature (sorry, can't find a link). Purchasing supernatural powers reduces refresh -- the extreme case would be starting a session with 0 FATE points. That means the player has no FATE points to buy off compels on their aspects, making them slaves to their nature. "With great power comes great responsibility." Also, while a Normal who uses Skill + 4dF can mitigate a bad role with FATE points, a Super rolling Skill + 4d10 will have fewer FATE points to change an unlucky die roll.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-49418639720858379502010-01-14T13:49:35.212-08:002010-01-14T13:49:35.212-08:00Hmmm. Interesting direction. I would like to say...Hmmm. Interesting direction. I would like to say, I prefer the three scale thing. Simple, clean, and easy to remember. I think the hang up with all FATE superhero hacks, is interaction between scales. Too little interaction, and why have super-teams at all. Superman can handle it all. Too much interaction and suddenly Silver Surfer has to watch out for handgun wielding thugs.<br /><br />I like Weaknesses nullifying scale difference. The Will mechanic is a good idea, and maybe still has a place. But, FATE points work well as player and character currency.<br /><br />I don't like a constant d6 die sub for scale difference. I think it runs into the same problem as a bloated scale. "I rolled a +15. What did you roll?" But in accord with your disclaimer, tastes vary. :-)<br /><br />How about this? You can't attack a higher scale without tagging a Weakness, but you can place Maneuvers! Has to fit the narrative, of course. Those thugs won't put a scratch on ol' Supes without a really good Aspect or Weakness to tag. But can they make him "Disracted", have him "Entangled", or even "Irritate" him? You betcha'. In fact that is their purpose. Not to threaten heroes. To slow them down, to complicate things, and of course to fall down before them in great numbers.<br /><br />In line with that, being on a higher scale doesn't necessarily mean you take out mooks any Faster than any other hero would. Rolling the dice should always be important. So Superman isn't rolling to see if he hits a mook. Of course he does. He is rolling to be able to narrate how he does it heroically. He could just Heat Ray a building full of them from orbit, or fly through them leaving only smoking fedoras behind, but he doesn't. He is a hero. He has to hold back , taking them down without killing, without turning into a monster. That is why you still roll +5 Superhuman Man of Steel against +2 Fair Thugs. That is why Batman could get by just fine fighting beside Superman. They both bring the same narrative take down power vesus lower tiers. Of course a moderate use of d6 sub dice would be fun. And that could bring your Will mechanic right back to fuel it. :-)<br /><br />To sum up what I like in your approach:<br />o Buying skill trappings<br />o Three tier scales<br />o Tagging Weaknesses to avoid scale<br />o Save up spin, Will mechanic for bonus d6<br />o d6 sub dice if used sparinglyfree hatanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687856763229529616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-38212714555606904132010-01-14T12:45:25.829-08:002010-01-14T12:45:25.829-08:00Interesting points!
And yeah, the effectiveness o...Interesting points!<br /><br />And yeah, the effectiveness of that broad factor is definitely weighted towards the knowledgeable / experienced player.<br /><br />Much in the same way as the combat in this sort of game provides a greater opportunity for the player who has combat experience themselves, (Martial Arts, SCA, Fencing, et al)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16935888921359538634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-44739143561169605752010-01-14T11:48:42.805-08:002010-01-14T11:48:42.805-08:00I've always been fond of the PDQ and Risus bro...I've always been fond of the PDQ and Risus broad quality/cliche for a light game as a GM, but have found that my players might take a bit of advantage and have hugely broad abilities (while one person is less broad and feels kinda left out).Robert Stehwienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158506849512588527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-38068982728633150532010-01-14T11:46:29.436-08:002010-01-14T11:46:29.436-08:00Guy - If skills/powers/etc were purchased in a sim...Guy - If skills/powers/etc were purchased in a similar fashion to Wild Talent powers and Kerberos Club skills, there would be even less to write down for the dragon. In WT you could price out "Dragon Powers" as one power and in KC you could price out Detective as one skill.<br /><br />The more broad the skill/power the more it costs per "die" in WT (a dice pool system). In some ways it is like pricing out PDQ qualities so the more broad the quality the more it costs.<br /><br />I've been leaning toward something like this for a Fate hack but haven't quite figured out how to do it (other than a blatant rip off of WT and KC with a Fate spin).Robert Stehwienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158506849512588527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-74106960053044446372010-01-14T11:23:50.436-08:002010-01-14T11:23:50.436-08:00Probably because of my current focus on the Spirit...Probably because of my current focus on the Spirit of Greyhawk, this blog entry brings to mind some concerns I am having with translating nasty monsters & high-level NPCs from my source material.<br /><br />Specifically I've been looking at the source material with an eye to creating some nasties that would really challenge my PCs in the campaign (along with some possible interaction with "name" NPCs).<br /><br />The situation I keep coming up against is looking at the sheer multitude of powers, resistances, paraphernalia of these heavy-hitters in the source material and thinking to myself: <br /><br />"This NPC's character sheet is going to be a mile long!! How am I going to keep track of all this?"<br /><br />Perhaps stated more appropriately, what's a reasonable way to translate these characters into a form where we can continue to "play at the speed of FATE" and still have any hope of doing these characters justice?<br /><br />At this point I don't have any real good answers, and I've been finding (from last weekend's session) that I need to start ratcheting up the bad guys in my campaigns, realizing just how effective SotC-level fantasy heroes are (I had tentatively estimated "2 levels / Hit Dice" per creation phase.5-phase characters at approximately 10th level, AD&D-wise).<br /><br />At the end of the day, my basic goal is that if/when PCs have to face off against a dragon, that if they are fortunate enough to survive the encounter, they really feel as though they've achieved something.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16250749425368911284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4491933635924780786.post-8857089212601058192010-01-14T11:10:12.850-08:002010-01-14T11:10:12.850-08:00I'm digging the change so that the tiers of po...I'm digging the change so that the tiers of power change the dice. With a d6 replacement or two, you will just win... period because of the vast differences in dice range and average.<br /><br />Instead of replacing the Fudge dice with d6, how about adding more Fudge dice but you still keep the best set of 4. Keeps things in the same range but increases the likelihood of the more powerful winning. (a bit like the PDQ# techniques in that regard... I also eye a T&J+PDQ#+Fate merger on occasion)<br /><br />This time I'm remembering to mark "email followups" so I don't miss out on a notification :)Robert Stehwienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158506849512588527noreply@blogger.com